Make up my mind...

[bover907]

Ok, guys here's the deal. As you know. I flirted with the idea of changing the engine (just the engine) in the new COT car. (of course I didn't give you guys quite the right engine the first time I released it... sorry, lepage was rushing me that night, and I am disorganized. lol). Anyway, I digress....

Well, Lepage has been PLEADING with me to leave the engine exactly the way it was in the original heat car. His reasoning behind this is that any deviation from what the original heat car had would put newbies at a disadvantage while giving veterans a competative edge. I personally don't subscribe to this idea. I think he's worrying himself to oblivion for nothing. Of course that's my H.O.

The reason I wanted to change the rpm range of the motor was just to keep things fresh. The original Stock.car engine redlines at 8600 rpm. It's max Hp is 720 @ 8000rpm. It's max torque is 600 ft/lb @ 4800 RPM.

What I'd like to do is have our new car redline at 9250 rpm, with max hp 720@ 8600 rpm and max torque 600 ft/lb@ 5400rpm. That's more like the rpm values that todays cars have. As you can see it has the exact amount of hp and torque as the original engine. I think a car that redlines at 8600 is unrealistic.

I can do it either way, but I'd like input on it first.... I want to hear from rookies and veterans alike. Not bantering or nothing, just useful input.

I want to release what will be the final version of the car by Monday or tuesday night, so there will be a little more than a month for you guys to test ur shit for the 2008 cup season. Of course, if it has the old engine everyone can place the same sets they've been running since 2002 in there and go.

So whatever I go with on tuesday is what we will have.

I'd like to know what you guys think.

[lepage71]

After testing with this mod extensively (the correct version that I have had in advance, not the messed up beta version), I have encountered several patterns that I do not feel are positive for the league. The altering of the engine might sound like a minor change, but it actually transforms the setup process significantly and requires a lot of unneeded consternation. Before this mod was even started, I suggested the downsides that messing with the original car could cause and I feel the changes were commandeered into the mod with little long-term reasoning. This is in addition to other more obvious facts...

For one, since lap counts and wear factor will be changing substantially for 2008, I'm not sure why changes are really necessary. The stated goal of this mod is to "mix things up setup-wise" and ensure that the same setups are not winning all of the time. However, this perspective is seriously flawed because a) the drivers supposedly winning with the "same old setups" are not suddenly going to be at a disadvantage with a changed car and b) drivers already alter their setups every single season. From year to year, everyone needs to adjust their setups in order to plan for different types of strategies and race lengths. Yes, the original car setups provide a fine starting point in the new car, but now you're dealing with multiple changes at once, including one that won't add any particular element to the competition except further setup refining on top of the usual setup refining. I'm glad the aero elements have not changed much, but I originally pointed out that the veterans have an immediate advantage in this situation (adapting and tweaking setups) and I did not feel that was good for the league. Several rookies have been practicing on their own during this off-season and this would pull the carpet out from under them (in addition to the other problems with changing the car). Any differences are just "changes for changing's sake" - an illusion of "leveling the playing field," but all that's really gained is a chance for experienced drivers to add a little distance behind them over drivers still gaining knowledge about the original Heat. If that's the goal of the mod, fine, but I don't think it's required at all. The fact that I already have setups for half of the tracks in the new car just piles on top of that fact. I should also mention that several upcoming features for the website, such as the archived CUP race results, pole times, race durations, fastest laps, etc. are rendered irrelevant and will not help anyone referencing them in the future (which is the entire point of making this data available). The new car is noticeably faster so this stuff won't help league members, in particular the learning drivers which it is geared towards.

I still suggest copy-pasting the original CUP engines into the mod; if someone's interested in small changes, the new dimensions of the car provide that. The increased power makes the car go faster overall, meaning more force through the corners and greater tire wear. You're going to need some major tweaking at certain places and more slippery setups to compensate. Those who are good on long runs, saving tires, etc. are going to have some immediate benefits in this faster machine. The great models and detail are the feature of this mod, plus the added ease in making paint schemes in the future, not a minor change that has large implications, adding confusion to setups that drivers were already going to tweak, and creating disadvantages for those it is trying to aid.

When you add everything together, nothing needs to be changed from the existing car and the competition from last season. Add that to the fact that we have a great crop of rookies in the league that are just starting to learn the original in the first place. In the end, I'm not going to worry about it, it doesn't hurt me, but I feel the physics aspect was designed with a group of drivers in mind and the idea that it would jumble things up; in reality little will actually change, except for some confusion and disadvantages for newer guys. As far as I'm concerned, any gung-ho comments from veterans in support of changes are completely disregarding the perspective of newer drivers as well as the factual downsides to this issue.

It's very easy to say "changes are good" after 20 seconds of "deep" contemplation. But my reasoning, introduced well before this mod was started, is sound and well thought out. For some of our rookies, Petty43 probably sums it up best in this post: http://www.nhrl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=7239. But the comments of d3 and others in previous posts in this forum section add to this observation.

[adamj]

i think raising the red line would make it sound even more like a vacuum cleaner.

[SpeedyExiter]

i think raising the red line would make it sound even more like a vacuum cleaner.
adamj

Please clarify..........Would that be a KIRBY or a HOOVER...........or are you talkin bout one of them new
fangled upgraded models made by DAEWOO????

Just a little newbie humor!!! : :

[Rookiesrock]

I'm for making the car similar to NASCAR's COT. The original heat game was designed similarly. I believe at this point it might be too late to change physics. Does there need to be more time to test the physics to come up with the right combination? Or is it a simple add hp & rpm's?
Any arguement about having to change or build setups is meaningless. Every Mod needs different setups. Newbies have to build from scratch. Those who possess equanimity when faced with sudden consternation will have an advantage. The same guys practice and tweek nomatter what the game.
Data base records etc etc haven't been accessible for over a year so that debate is fruitless.We have lived without it for so long that 40% of the drivers don't know it was ever available. The veterans have been the source of pole speeds, avg times, etc etc.
I am undecided without being able to test it. I'm not sure if there is enough time to test it either. The CTS schedule is taking up every week till speedweek. I'm at the point that whatever is out there is what I have to use.

Bover worked is ass off to build this mod. He needed his crew (you know who you are) to help and support him in his wish to change the physics. I feel he was let down. Hence Lepage will get his way.

[Stick77]

Well if we are taking a vote, I would say leave the RPM redline the same as the original. The sound of the engine is good. It might be cause i have the messed up beta version but the new redline seems to have more of an effect on some courses than others. For me personally it throws off the RoadCourses and some ovals, where i use the redline for my braking and shift points (adjusting gears 1,2,3 are a headache to me). Overall its a great mod im just not sure of the RPM change( been bouncing back and forth with this for ahwile now). But im going with leave it the same. How about putting up a poll for it?

[DaveO]

I think your running out of time to change it at this point with everyone practicing for cts everyweek. I have suggested this a few times, several weeks ago and very recently. If you were to change the physics... If everyone is worried about peeps having problems with having to deal with new sets. Why not a bunch of veternans take on a few tracks and make base setups for the new mod.. If any of you remember when the nbs mod was made and released in 2005 that mod came with "NHRL setups for every single track, and gave everyone from veternans to newbies something to start with for testing purposes. I think if we had more time before the new season was to begin making base sets for this mod might have been possible. just my 2. cents.

[bover907]

Alright, fair enough. I will leave the engine the same as the original. To any of you who were mislead to making new setups.... I apologize.

As far as the vacuum cleaner statement? I don't know what to make of that. You may be talking of the transmission 'whine' which fades completely out by 6000 rpm and is pretty much inaudible after about 4500.... I don't know if you have watched incar shots during cautions or warm up laps on tv... but it is there, and very prevalent.. for some reason a lot more in DEI (before the childress merger) and hendrick chevys.

Sorry no big words in my post.

[efgordon]

Again, i'm probably going to speak out of my ass here because i dont know enough about the purpose of this whole COT thing. Was the league (and i guess i mean lepage. or whoever else is "the league") wanting to go to a COT car and subcontracted that work out to Bover? or is this a Bover creation with a goal to "pitch it to the league"?? I dont know why, but there is a difference to me depending which it is.

If indeed this was your baby Bover and you are simply hoping to make a top quality product that "the league" would test and consider using, then i would consider you the artist and wouldent want to put any ideas on the table or limit what your visualizing as a more realistic mod. I would suggest you use the feild of dreams template. "if you build it they will come". You would probably have enough support from diehards like myself to force your way into the market even if "the league" didnt make the switch right away. It might be more of a cult following at first with smaller league spinoffs and such, but if it was a superior product, then time would be on your side.

now, if this is a league project with you being the man they put in charge of the program, then i would say it should satisfy the league first (again, whatever the definition of league is) and it would be up to league members to ask, suggest, pleed, whatever, to the league about changes like the same way any of us do for any changes.

Here is what i would suggest if i was in charge (hahaha).....

Build the stinking thing with the changes that make it more like the real COT cars. Dont put one thought into how it would make drivers change setups. Its not rocket science to drive these cars or tweek setups. The "Vets vs Newbs" advantage is bunk (imo) and it would really come down to "practicers vs non practicers" who will have the advantage. Nothing new about that! Then the league should use the real world as an example of how to handle change. They didnt just switch to the COT cars overnight did they? NO!. The league (if they wanted to transition to a COT mod) should only put a handfull of races on the schedule with the new COT mod, just like the real world. Perhaps the first season would be a sample of several different types of tracks with the new mod, then the majority of races with the regular mod. Then at some point, the league could decide if/when to switch totally to the new mod.

btw - i did read petty's comments and i cant say i dissagree. It would be a shame if indeed the regular old nascar heat mod died due to these changes. That mod did stand the test of time and it could probably go untouched for another 10 years and i would still learn something new about it every year and still have to tweak setups and still have a blast driving the thing. However, the solution is simple. Just make the nhrl's bgn series, the regular heat mod. So the BGN mod (which was also a great piece of work) will go by the wayside intead of the regular heat mod. That seems to be a compromise i could live with.

then, (yes, i am still imagining i am in charge) i would announce that the league would move the bgn series (using the regular heat mod) to saturdays (like the real world) and the CUP series (using the cot mod at select places the first year, then switching totally to the new COT mod the next year) would be on sundays. I could get all this done in one single day if someone was to put me in charge for just one day...hahahaha

all that being said, i fully support whatever happens. at the end of the day, its still about having fun. I can do that with any mod if the competition is good.

.02

[lepage71]

I think Rookie's comments demonstrate the silliness of making something like this a popularity contest (one with the obvious outcome of a divided opinion among the league). On that thought, see the nice consensus that our "day and time" polls have achieved. Before bover started his mod, 2Quick4u and I tried to tackle making a "new car" (yes, we abandoned it pretty quickly and it failed). At first, I also believed changing the car physics was a good idea. In a short time, the downsides that I outlined became apparent and contributed to the abandonment of the project. Subsequently, bover decided to take on the task, and I explained that we would require any new mod to use the original game characteristics. It is bover's mod. He can design it as he wants. But from the beginning this requirement was laid forth.

Hence Lepage will get his way.

Do you really think that's what this is about? Why would I be so opposed to changing the car? Fear for myself over the changes come competition time? Come on. I wouldn't be so opposed to this unless I felt, after contemplating everything, there were negatives for the league. The only "bunk" argument here are ones like this; 20-second-thought-out forum posts are not going to convince anyone but the poster. Those that might want changes have their own reasons. Likewise for those that do not not want changes. Furthermore, bover has not been let down. From the start I have been testing his car files, offering comments about the graphics, and have progressively been more opposed to changing anything regarding engines and physics. Since he is designing the mod, I have purposely not tried to meddle (except slip in an extra Kevin car or two...) When he has asked for assistance I have tried to help. Now I see things like "let down." That could not be more inaccurate.

I also keep seeing the word realistic thrown around in some vague attempt to slap together an argument. If realism is the goal, shouldn't these new cars be slower, not faster? From what Skoty tells me, the real "Car of Tomorrow" cars are slower on most non-restrictor-plate places. WIth bover's changes, I was running around at Atlanta doing 28.9s. Why not paste the NBS physics into this mod? That would be the most realistic wouldn't it? Then we could paste the CUP physics back into NBS in a pointless circular act. If realism were what we are after here, online Heat racing would have folded long, long ago.

I will say again, the features of this mod are the fantastic modeling and graphics. Bover has stated numerous times that a major factor behind this mod are the crummy original Heat painting abilities. If indeed the same guys are winning with the same setups (which I do not believe is true, considering every event I've won this season has been with a redone setup), doesn't that mean there's some stagnation at the top? If that is true, then "those guys" at the top can only be caught by those pursuing, not increase their advantage correct? But switching the handling around opens the opportunity for the gap to widen again. From whatever angle you approach, changes in the end appear pointless.

[SpeedyExiter]

I hope I'm not steping out of bounds here,being a "newbie" and all etc. ,....but this whole business
is starting to sound like a surprise math test on monday morning after i just got back from tubing on the river and drinking all day on sunday!! : ...I just wanna RACE....LOOK at all the MOds that have been made for NASCAR heat.....some u can't even get anymore....I think Bover has put alot of hard work in his mod and if he wants to change this or that ...go for it!! don't like it ..make a better one yourself ....I understand u all r lookin for something different....I'm always striving for bigger and better ...WAS it just Better Graphics u all wanted... better handling ...Wider tires ... I mean what was the original intention to add a new Mod ....COT= CAR OF TOMORROW.... SOMETHING NEW AND DIFFERENT...... TO PUT SOME MORE EXCITEMENT into the GAME!!! ANYway ...IF I should just BUTT OUT!!
NO PROB.. I'LL go with Whatever you , Bover and the League decides to put on the table .Change Can be Good sometimes ......BUT Gentleman. whatever u decide.......... START YOUR ENGINES!!!! Lets go........ BOOGITY BOOGITY BOOGITY!!!! lol :lol:

[efgordon]

sry. facts are i wouldent know 'realistic' if it bit me in the ass. I'm not a real driver. I probably should have used the word "modern" in my response to this open discussion instead of "realistic".

[Rookiesrock]

Furthermore, bover has not been let down.

Anything other than a "can do" mentality is a hindrance. Clearly some are used to getting what they want and how they want it.

[bover907]

To answer your question, ef. This was actually a project I started and proposed to 'the league'. The main reason for which I started this project was that since I was for the most part the main painter in the league, (look at the starting grids. you see better than half the cars are a "BCP" original) and the original heat cars are a royal pain in the ass to paint. Also I just would have liked to drive a COT looking car since we are a 'NASCAR' league. So, this was a "bover proposal to the league".

In all fairness to lepage, when I proposed this project to him, he said, "That's fine, but I'd like any new mod to keep heat's original physics." I did tell him I was fine with that. Then, when I had to edit the physics.val file (You have to edit this file even if your leaving the physics the same, because it decides where your point of view is from the cockpit, amongst other things), I got a little overzealous and tried out playing with physics. So, in effect I did sort of snooker lepage by attempting to put different physics in there. I did try to convince lepage that change would be good, but I did also say to him at the beginning, that no other mod that I've found has gotten it right in making physics that lend to as good a competition as the original game has.

With that all said, yes even tho this mod is my creation and so much hard work has gone into it. I still want it to be what is 'best for the league'. I wouldn't want competition to suffer at the sake of better looking cars.

[efgordon]

To answer your question, ef. This was actually a project I started and proposed to 'the league'. The main reason for which I started this project was that since I was for the most part the main painter in the league, (look at the starting grids. you see better than half the cars are a "BCP" original) and the original heat cars are a royal pain in the ass to paint. Also I just would have liked to drive a COT looking car since we are a 'NASCAR' league. So, this was a "bover proposal to the league".

In all fairness to lepage, when I proposed this project to him, he said, "That's fine, but I'd like any new mod to keep heat's original physics." I did tell him I was fine with that. Then, when I had to edit the physics.val file (You have to edit this file even if your leaving the physics the same, because it decides where your point of view is from the cockpit, amongst other things), I got a little overzealous and tried out playing with physics. So, in effect I did sort of snooker lepage by attempting to put different physics in there. I did try to convince lepage that change would be good, but I did also say to him at the beginning, that no other mod that I've found has gotten it right in making physics that lend to as good a competition as the original game has.

With that all said, yes even tho this mod is my creation and so much hard work has gone into it. I still want it to be what is 'best for the league'. I wouldn't want competition to suffer at the sake of better looking cars.

i can only speak for myself, but i bet pretty much everyone (want change guys vs not want change guys) understands how much effort you put in and are very thankfull either way this thing pans out.

[Rookiesrock]

I sense the frustration comes from the fact that most drivers wanted to help anyway and everyway they could. And now it seems too late for productive input.
Also Ef, apparently this COT mod has permissions for NHRL only. So organized racing of it is prohibited. I hear there's a COT mod out there somewhere.

[efgordon]

I sense the frustration comes from the fact that most drivers wanted to help anyway and everyway they could. And now it seems too late for productive input.
Also Ef, apparently this COT mod has permissions for NHRL only. So organized racing of it is prohibited. I hear there's a COT mod out there somewhere.

hahahaha thats the funniest thing i heard all day.

[Stick77]

Here is my opinon again, make it how you want and ill adapt to it.

[Rookiesrock]

Rookiesrock wrote:
I sense the frustration comes from the fact that most drivers wanted to help anyway and everyway they could. And now it seems too late for productive input.
Also Ef, apparently this COT mod has permissions for NHRL only. So organized racing of it is prohibited. I hear there's a COT mod out there somewhere.



hahahaha thats the funniest thing i heard all day.

It is true EF. This mod cannot be used in an organized league outside NHRL. Ask Bover.. He'll tell you.

[jrfan381]

Here is my opinon again, make it how you want and ill adapt to it.

I'm with Stick, whatever is put out there for us to drive, I'll drive it